Ask Patrick Arnold #7

Pat is responsible for launching several major product and innovation in the prohormone industry through LPJ Research and Ergopharm, including the first to release androstenedione, 1-AD, 6-OXO, 4-androstenediol, and 19-norandrostenediol. In addition, he is responsible for bringing innovative delivery systems to the prohormone market including HPB cyclodextrin, bioadhesive technology for sustained release, and sustained release sprays.

Publication Date: December 15, 1998

Subject: Prohormone Conversion & Liver Glycogen / ATP

1. I understand that the conversion of pro-hormones to testosterone/nortestosterone occurs in the liver and is ATP dependent. Is there anything I should be taking along with the pro-hormones to achieve an optimal level of liver glycogen/ATP? To that end, what percentage of my calories should be derived from carbohydrates while on the Stack?

The conversion of diones to their respective active androgens is highly ATP dependent however you are using a stack of diols which do not share this dependency. If you were using diones then I would recommend taking the diones with a high glycemic carbohydrate source to maximize conversion. BTW conversion happens within the liver and outside of the liver as well.

2. I train after work at 6:30 PM and am initially planning to take one pill (with a meal) about an hour-and-a-half before my session. Would this be the best time to take it? Will this dosage be too weak to get any results?

I would suggest at least two diol stack caps a day. Preferably with meals and one before a workout is a good idea as well.

Subject: Norandrodiol Recommendations for Women

You have indicated appropriate Norandrodiol dosages, but what do you suggest as an appropriate Norandrodiol cycle. (Specifically, how much for how long for 30 something women). Thanks for your pure science without the marketing hype- you are an oasis in the MM/EAS mainstream flood.

An appropriate nordiol stack for a woman like yourself would be 100 to 300mg a day taken with meals. Cycles should last no longer than 4 to 6 weeks. Good luck!!

Subject: Norandrodiol and Drug Testing

But, in the August issue, Pat wrote to Justin, "19-Nortestosterone precursors should always be avoided for anyone subject to doping testing." Is this contradictory advise? If so, Joe needs a heads-up warning.

Yikes!! I must have misunderstood you. There are differing policies for some of the "natural" competitions. Some allow prohormones while some do not. Ask your officials. Also keep in mind that if it is urine tested then you will test positive for nandrolone (an anabolic steroid) while using nor precursors. Good Luck!!

Subject: Prohormones and Engogenous Production

Am presently using the Substrate Solutions Nor Stack. I am a 37-year old male who has not felt this good in fifteen or twenty years! Do I HAVE to go off this stuff? Will I "adapt" to it, eventually, such that it offers scant benefits? Enjoy your column in "Mesomorphosis" -- there's REAL information in there!

You really do have to go off of it. If you do not then your endogenous production will suffer more and more. People should not take prohormones for longer than 8 to 10 weeks and then take at least that time, preferably twice that time, off of the stuff for their own testosterone production to recover.

Subject: Blue Nitro and GHB Pro Drugs

Let me thank you in advance for carrying on the tradition of Dan Duchaine and providing us with great info. I had a couple of questions that I hope you can answer. Does Blue Nitro ring a bell? It claims to be made of 2(3H) Furanone di-hydro with some other stuff like K+ etc... and is just like RenewTrient. Is it harmful? What is the mode of action and where is it excreted? Why does it eat through paper cups like an acid? Is there any better fast acting, sleep aid with a short half life that is prescribeable or obtainable? I have heard of Restoril but, like all other benzodiazepenes it can stay with you longer than one might want.

The product in question is gamma-butyrolactone which is a GHB prodrug. In other words it shares all of GHB's sedating and GH releasing properties. Unfortunately it also shares GHB's addictive potential and low therapeutic index (active dose too close to toxic dose). It eats through plastic cups because it is a very powerful solvent.

Question 2- do you feel that Proviron will compete with Test and anabolics at the receptor site like DD has stated? I felt that as an anti-aromatase it was superior to Nolvadex because it does prevent rather than compete with estrogen at the receptor.

I do not understand DD's reasoning. If it did displace testosterone from androgen receptors and acted as an agonist it would be more powerful than testosterone. It may decrease estrogen production which will decrease water weight gain which can be interpreted as weakening the cycle though.

#3- Is there any way you can give info concerning proper dosage and admin. patterns of hGH and what accessories might be necessary. I read that high androgens, thyroid, and insulin are a necessity as they potentiate each other and w/o no real effect happens.

Anecdotal reports are that at least 4 i.u. of GH a day are necessary and in conjunction with testosterone or other powerful anabolics is desired. Insulin is not necessary buy high calorie diet is.

Subject: Substrate Solutions and Anti-Estrogen Supplements

Sincerely Anthony

Substrate Solutions will probably not be the company that comes out with my gyno prevention/treatment formulation but rather it will probably come out first on my private label line that should be introduced in the first half of '99. There is a lot that goes into putting together a private line so be patient, its many months away.

Subject: Prohormones and Interference by Other Supplements

I have just started using Mor-Andro 200 by Osmo. What I would like to know is if there are any substances that could interfere with it's effectiveness (such as coffee, ECA stack, creatine, glutamine, etc). You see, I train 2 hours after breakfast and like to have a few cups of coffee an hour before training to help wake me up and get my mind focused on the task at hand. I know that it has been suggested to take pro-hormones 30-60 minutes before training. Will the coffee or an ECA stack interfere? Also, would it be wise to take it after working out with my post workout drink (protein, carbs, creatine, glutamine)? Thanks for your help.

None of the substances you mention should interfere with the efficacy of the mor-andro. However I do recommend you take it with a small meal containing a small amount of fat.

Subject: Fasting During Ramadan

2. What changes in diet should accompany fasting? I would like to know what type of rep/set scheme you would prefer since the body will be deprived of all nutrients during daytime and for a short while after sunset there will be a slight to moderate rise in blood pressure. I shall be very grateful for your answer and since Ramadan is coming up your response shall be a great help to the entire Muslim bodybuilding community.

I admire your devotion to your religion and have known many devout Muslims in my life. I have always noticed that Ramadan is a particularly catabolic time for them. I would train less than normally and with less weight than normal with good form. Best time to train would be right before your sundown feast. Try to eat as much as possible at night which I am sure is no problem since you will undoubtedly be starving. If you can take prohormones than load up on them at night as well. Your goal should be to get through Ramadan with as much muscle as possible. Best of Luck!!

Subject: Cycling Creatine with ECA

Does it make sense to cycle between an ECA stack and a Creatine supplementation for, say, some 6 weeks each?

Hmmm, on first glance I was going to ignore this question but after thinking it over I think it DOES make sense to do such a cycle. That is because ECA tends to counter insulin secretion and glycogen deposition while creatine seems to do the opposite. So you might be able to cut up and get lean for 6 weeks and then fill out your muscles again for the next 6 weeks. Good Luck.

Subject: Rice Protein Supplements

I recently began taking a rice protein supplement. I am not sure if rice protein in very beneficial, but I don't react well to soy protein. Do you know if it is?

Rice Protein is lacking in one very important essential amino acid. This amino acid is abundant in beans like soybeans. On the other hand beans are lacking in methionine which is present in abundance in rice protein. That is why rice and beans make for a complete protein meal. However rice protein all by itself is inadequate.

Subject: Propecia and Norandrodiol

Propecia is NOT a good idea to take with nor-prohormones. That is because DHN is a weaker androgen than N (in contrast to what happens with T) and by blocking the 5-Alpha reduction you in fact make nandrolone WORSE in regards to hair loss. So, whether you understood what I said or not, my advice is either take Proprecia with andro-prohormones or no Propecia with nor-prohormones. Good luck!

Subject: Adequacy of Manufacturer’s Recommended Dosages

I have talked to some friends that have tried the pro hormones and have given them there disapproval as to there effectiveness in building muscle. There were people that have at a minimum 5 years training experience drug free. I do believe they followed the recommended amounts on the bottle. Can you comment on this?

Yes. The recommended dosages on the bottle are too low for most people (depending on the brand). Most men need at least a total of 500mg of prohormone a day to see results (preferably in the form of 4-diols). I would say don't write prohormones off, but rather find the dose that works for you, because they DO work.

Subject: Prohormone Delivery Systems

I would like to ask about the best delivery form for the andros. This because I read that oral ingestion shuttles the unconverted prohormones from the stomach to the liver and metabolized them before they have a chance to enzymatically convert to an active compound in the blood. Therefor I recently took apart a powder inhaler originally intended for asthma. I now intend to fill it with a blend of 4AD,5AD and nor-andro. How safe and/or effective do you think it would it be in terms of absorption rates and bronchial irritation. And how does it compare with oral, sublingual and yes even rectal delivery into the blood stream.

The best delivery system for prohormones is by sublingual cyclodextrin complexes (SCCs) Read about them at http://www.testosterone.net/html/scp30.html

Subject: 5-Norandrodiol and Immune Stimulation

Do you know if nor-5-diol will have the immune stimulating affects of 5-androstenediol (due to its similar structure -the 5 portion)? Where can I find research on prohormones?

We have no idea what biological effects nor-5-diol has because no research on it has ever been published. You can find information on prohormones in a chemistry, biology, or medical library. I cannot teach you how to be a good library researcher however. good luck!

Subject: Androstene and Lung Cancer

Relax Jenny. Androstenedione is a very safe substance to ingest. It is not toxic to the liver nor does it raise testosterone levels far outside the normal range. The gloom and doom you have been reading in the media has no basis in real science. However I would prefer your boyfriend take Androdiol instead of androstenedione to avoid any undue estrogenic side effects [i.e. gynecomastia (bitch tits)].