Ask Patrick Arnold #5

Pat is responsible for launching several major product and innovation in the prohormone industry through LPJ Research and Ergopharm, including the first to release androstenedione, 1-AD, 6-OXO, 4-androstenediol, and 19-norandrostenediol. In addition, he is responsible for bringing innovative delivery systems to the prohormone market including HPB cyclodextrin, bioadhesive technology for sustained release, and sustained release sprays.

Publication Date: October 15, 1998

Relationship Between Norandrodiol and Nandrolone Production

Pat:

You've cautiously avoided making wild claims about "results" from 19 Norandrodiol and other pro-hormones you're involved with. Smart. But can you please help me understand the relationship of certain dosages of 19Norandrodiol to an actual increase in production of Nandrolone?

What I'd like understand is how much 19 Norandrodiol someone weighing about 160 lbs. would have to ingest per day (capsules) to a) make it through the digestive process and b) into the bloodstream and c) into the liver and d) converted to be functionally equivalent to a straight injection of Deca Durabolin. You pick the Deca dosage and back into the 19 Norandrodiol dose. I'd like to understand how much of what I'm taking actually converts and into what amount of Nandrolone.

There was something about the conversion rate in one of the trade magazines this month, but even from my non-expert read, the author seemed to ignore the impact of digestion, which makes me question the rest of the value of the article. Your thoughts?

There is no way I can make the comparison. First of all I have no idea how much Norandrodiol will get converted to nortestosterone when ingested. It would depend on the individual and the dosage taken. Also whether taken with food etc. I would estimate the average would be only a few percent of Norandrodiol would ever make it to the blood as nortestosterone.

The pharmacokinetics of an oral prohormone compared to that of a long acting injectable are very different as well. Oral nor precursors cause a mild and transitory increase in blood nortestosterone levels while the decanoate ester causes a long term and dose dependent increase in blood levels. As a result the physiological responses are quite different and I am afraid unpredictable by myself.

I am sure other supplement gurus can give you more satisfying answers, whether truthful or not, and that is probably what you are looking for. Not gone find it here though.

Who Gives Good Advice on Supplements

Dear Patrick,

I am really confused about who to listen to when it comes to sports supplements. I am new to taking supplements but not new to working out. I have avoided taking any supplements during my first ten years of training because there is so much hype and no action with the products that are out now. On top of that, when something great comes out it last for a few months then fades as the new product comes out. I would like to know how do I decide who to listen to when it comes to supplements? It seems that people are talking about you, Bill Roberts, Bill Phillips, Derek Cornelius, Dan Duchaine and others. You all seem to knock each other off as you switch companies. Is there some agency or recognized arbitrator that establishes which one of you all are the experts?

Thanks

Don
Tallahassee, FL

All right you twisted my arm and I must admit the only ones credible are Bill Phillips and Derek Cornelius.

You want my true advice? Educate YOURSELF and make your own decisions. That is what I did when I started buying supplements. I did not go to college for it, I read books and thought things through. Learn to do the same.

When you are finally enlightened it is then that you realize that myself and for the most part Bill Roberts are the only ones that know what they are talking about :-)

Bicarbonate and Creatine Monohydrate

Pat,

IRONMAN is advertising a new Creatine Monohydrate product that uses an Alka Seltzer like effect to deliver the compound to the system. They claim higher muscular levels than with insulin spiking. Is there any scientific basis for this, and if so, would it help with the prohormones as well?

The bicarbonate in the product will help buffer the Creatine Monohydrate (CM) from breakdown by stomach acid and facilitate its uptake into the small intestine as well. However since the bioavailability into the blood stream from the GI tract is known to be quite adequate for good old straight CM there should be no noticeable difference in this product from the straight stuff.

Prohormone Dosages for Women

Dear Patrick,

I have been trying to find out about dosages of prohormones for women ever since I read an interview in Ironman about a fitness competitor who said she used it. All info I'd heard to date said women should stay away from this stuff.

I have been asking everyone I could think of; most are on the fence. But I did post a note to Weights-2 and got an answer back from a personal trainer in Chicago who has a 43 year old female client who is taking two Nor-Stack capsules/day and is about to increase the dose to 3. I was a bit horrified as dosages of 19-nor (which seem to be the best due to less androgenic side effects) have been recommended at 25-50 mg/day (before a workout). This woman is taking as much as most men. To date she reports no side effects, but is this just a matter of time?

Since you developed this product, I'd appreciate your opinion on this. Several of my women BB friends are holding off until we have some really conclusive info that says we could try a small dose without having a sex change in a capsule. We'd all like to pack on more mass and lose a bit of fat, but not at the expense of growing beards, etc. Would very much appreciate your take on this.

Thanks,

Rosemary

Rosemary, I would say take no more than 600 mg of nortestosterone precursor (dione or diol or combo) a day. Preferably in 3 divided doses. If you see any increase in facial hair or hoarseness of voice then stop immediately. Since the half life of the precursor is very short you should be able to halt any virilization before it can become permanent.

Norandrostenedione Use for Drug-Free Show

Dear Pat,

I am competing in 4 weeks in a drug-free show. Although I am already very lean I want that last little bit of hardness. Would Norandrostenedione be a good idea? I am already doing the E/C/A stack, Twinlab’s Yohimbe Fuel, and L-Carnitine. Anything you can add would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Joe

Norandrodiol would be a good idea to help keep fullness to your muscles which will make you look harder. Take at least 600mg a day. Good luck!

Side Effects for Nortestosterone versus Testosterone

Dear Pat

I am a 54-year old male, muscular and very fit. For the past year, I've been on testosterone replacement therapy for hypogonadism, receiving 150cc injections of testosterone enanthate every 2 weeks. While there have been distinct benefits, there have also been unwanted side-effects in terms of hair loss, prostate enlargement, skin rash, added fat around the waist, etc. You claim that your Norandrodiol limits these side-effects. Is this true? What studies have you done to prove these claims? Could I expect to receive the benefits of testosterone injections (in terms of increased libido, feeling of well-being, great muscle mass, etc.) without the side-effects. What dosage do you recommend for a man my age and condition? And since I'm getting these injections under a doctor's care, is there an injectable form of this available by prescription?

Thanks very much for answering.

Ron

Nortestosterone is the hormone that Norandrodiol converts to. I have not done a single study to show that nortestosterone causes less side effects (prostate enlargement, visceral fat) than testosterone does. I don't have to. The studies have been done years ago and are quite conclusive.

Your best bet would be to get your doctor to switch you from you T enanthate to Deca Durabolin 200mg every two weeks. if he does not do this then you can try the Norandrodiol but I would take at least 800 mg a day if you want it to replace the enanthate you are taking.

Percent Conversion to DHT and Estrogen for Prohormones

Dear Patrick,

What is the percentage rate of all these pro hormones getting converted into things like DHT and estrogen? Everyone is saying that 19-Norandrostendione does not get converted into Estrogen, but I know this is complete bullshit, because I know many people who are getting sore nipples or gynecomastia from using it? Everyone know what they want these prohormones to get converted too, but what are the real chances of these pro hormones getting converted into test or nandrolone? Why the hell doesn't anyone do a test on how they raise DHT or estrogen levels? Who gives a shit if they raise test or nandrolone levels if they raise DHT and estrogen levels just as much then it is a shitty supplement that will make you bald and give you bitch tits.

Bekim

Note: Other supplement companies should now thank me in advance for providing them once again with the following free information that they will undoubtedly exploit with no credit to me once again.

Nortestosterone precursor supplements cannot convert to DHT. Testosterone precursors can however. DHT is not necessarily a bad thing for everyone however and has many positive attributes (strength gains, endogenous anti-estrogen).

Both nortestosterone and testosterone precursors can convert to estrogens. However it is unclear how much norandrostenedione can convert to estrogens although we know that it is probably significantly less then androstenedione. It is interesting to note that although the diones can aromatize directly to estrogens the diols CANNOT. That is because the diols lack an enolizable C3 ketone. The nortestosterone and testosterone that the Norandrodiol and Androdiol convert to respectively however can directly aromatize.

I am trying the best I can to get these tests done. I have done everything I can up to this point short of taking the money out of my own pocket to get them done. Please bear with me and you will soon have some more concrete answers.

Prohormones and Risk of Gynecomastia

Pat,

I really appreciate your opinion and would like an honest answer about some of the prohormones, that you promote. I am 35 and have been lifting for about 15 years naturally. I would like to add about 10 lbs. to my frame (lean, of course) by using a cycle of norandrostenediol. I am absolutely terrified of gynecomastia and won't do anything unless I do everything to avoid it. I have heard you say that norandrostenediol has very little chance of converting to estrogen, but I understand that whenever you come off of a cycle, your natural testosterone is lowered and estrogen is increased. Am I correct in assuming that I could develop gynecomastia, not from the conversion of the norandrostenediol, but from unusually high estrogen production in my body after a cycle? If this is true, what is the best legal substance I could use to avoid it?

Norandrodiol poses a minimum risk of gynecomastia. Keeping cycles down to 6 weeks and daily dosing less than 1000mg a day will also minimally shut down your testes. So relax. Take some indole-3-carbinol when coming off if you want too.

Relative Potency and Liver Effects of Prohormones

Dear Pat,

There seems to be so much information floating around the Internet regarding pro-hormones, specifically 19-norandrostenediol. I am interested in taking the pro-hormone that will work best for muscle gain. Please let me know what is the best pro-hormone to take, and whether or not it needs to be stacked with another pro-hormone. Also, I have had liver problems in the past (Hepatitis-B), will these prohormone effect my liver?

Thank you,

Curt

I do not know which prohormone or stack is the most potent. I would say for sure that Androdiol is more potent than androstenedione however I do not know whether a stack of Androdiol and androstenedione is more potent than Androdiol alone.

I also do not know whether the corresponding nors are more potent than the andros. I DO know that the nors have less androgenic side effects (hair loss, libido increase, prostate enlargement) than the andros.

So I don't know. Nobody knows. Anyone that says they do are lying.

These prohormones should not effect liver function at all.

Supplements for Skinny Model Look

Dear Patrick,

Why are all the sports supplements geared towards making someone big? I am already big and want to become the little, thin model guy. Why is everyone trying to promote the little guy become the big muscular hulk? I know many men who are on the big side and don't want to become the heavy weight professional bodybuilders these supplements claim to help you become. What supplements help us big guys become like the little guys?

Don

Awwwww, so you want to become a sissy? I think Muscle Media can help you out with that. Pick up a recent copy and read it.