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by Patrick Arnold
Pat is responsible for launching several major product and innovation in the prohormone industry
through LPJ Research and
Ergopharm, including the first to release androstenedione, 1-AD, 6-OXO, 4-androstenediol, and 19-norandrostenediol. In addition, he is responsible for bringing innovative delivery systems to the prohormone market including HPB cyclodextrin, bioadhesive technology for sustained release, and sustained release sprays.
Publication Date: July
1998
Dear Patrick:
I am a poor college student (redundant?),
anyways, I was reading your article and you said something to the
extent that 5AD is poor product yet Mesomorphosis sells 5AD, I
thought that 5AD sounded very promising and was going to try it out,
any other recommendations?
Seibo Shne
5-AD has plusses and minuses. it also depends on what you are
looking for. If you are looking for maximal strength and muscle gain
then it is inferior to androdiol. If you are looking for muscle gain
with less androgenic side effects then it is a better bet then
androdiol.
5-AD also has some other effects that you may want to take into
consideration. First of all it is an immune system stimulant which
is a positive and desirable property. Secondly it is significantly
estrogenic which at high dosages means you are at great risk of
gynecomastia and testicular atrophy.
Dear Pat,
Are there some androgenic effects on women
using Androdiol? My wife’s experience was that of a tremendously
increased sex drive and moderate size and strength gains. The dosage
she used was 200 mg in the morning and 100 mg at night. No acne,no
facial hair maybe a very slight clitoral growth (wishful thinking on
my part). She is quite happy with the results. Perhaps an increase
in dosage??
Thanks for your prompt reply
Androdiol is an androgenic compound yes. I am not surprised your
wife is getting the effects she is getting. I would recommend most
women avoid androdiol unless they are very careful not to use it for
too long. I would keep a close eye on your wife as she is at risk
for irreversible virilization problems. She may want to switch to
norandrodiol which is a low androgenic high anabolic steroid
prohormone.
Dear Patrick,
I would like to know if the
"androstenedione " molecule is a "17-methylated" one (like
"methandrostenolone")? Has it got the same toxicity for the liver as
"methandrostenolone"? Can I use it at a 150mg dose per day ,during
six weeks without risks for the health?
[email protected]
No, androstenedione (or any of the natural steroid precursors)
are not 17-methylated compounds. All 17-methylated compounds are
synthetically derived as this chemical functional group does not
occur in nature.
As you know 17-methlyated steroids have a certain increased risk
of hepatotoxicity associated with them. None of the naturally
occuring steroids share this risk.
Dear Patrick,
Here is a question that Bill Roberts
answered:
Why is desmolase inhibition bad? I have
read that cortisol is the enemy of our muscles, and we want to
reduce it.
"Those articles are written by people
trying to sell you alleged cortisol-reducing supplements. While
abnormally high levels of cortisol are indeed muscle wasting,
abnormally low levels of cortisol do not result in extra muscle
growth, and cause joint problems."
Since everyone speaks from a different
frame of reference, I would like to hear your thoughts on why
Substrate Solutions is pursuing this same substrate.
Thank You,
Richard
I stand by what Bill Roberts said. Excessive cortisol is the
enemy, but cortisol levels that are too low are just as bad.
Substrate Solutions was thinking of selling Phosphatidylserine but
has since postponed that. PS is not a cortisol blocker but rather it
diminshes the increase of cortisol resulting from stress (i.e.
physical exercise). It will not lower your cortisol under normal
circumstances. This makes it the ideal cortisol attenuating
supplement as it only works when your cortisol is ready to go out of
control due to stress.
Dear Patrick,
I have some Sportsone 19-norandro and some
Gen androdiol. Is there any benefit to using these products
together, like the "deca and test" stack?
This is a good stack since they do convert to different
prohormones and they also utilize seperate enzymatic pathways.
Dear Pat,
IS Substrate's Norandrostenediol the same
as Sports One Nordiol? I believe Sports One is 19Nor-5androstene-3,
17Diol. Given your opinion of 5androstenediol does this carry over
to norandrostenediol?
Thanks, Cort
There is no literature that I can find that substantiates any
benefits for this 5 version of norandrodiol (and I looked high and
low). If the manufacturers have any literature on it I think they
owe it to reveal it to the public. Otherwise why should we think
this compound has any activity at all?
One absolutely cannot extrapolate the data on nor4-4AD (the
anabolic steroid bolandiol) to this nor-5AD. Delta 4 and delta-5
steroids often have drastically different pharmacological
activities. One example is pregnenolone and progesterone. They (like
the aforementioned nordiols) both share the same chemical structure
except for the position of the double bond. Pregnenolone (a delta-5)
has practically no progestational activity while progesterone (a
delta-4) is the strongest endogenous progestagen.
Although I am biased I am sure you would agree with me that more
data needs to be presented on the nor-5AD and until then the
consumer would be best served to stick to the proven nor-4AD.
Dear Pat,
I've read that taking antibiotics during a
steriod cycle inhibits enymes that are needed to process steriods in
the liver, thereby rendering them ineffective. Seeing that I am
currently taking tetracycline, and would like to try the one of your
stacked hormone precursor formulas, I was wondering if the same
holds true concerning products like androdiol, norandrodiol, etc. I
know these are processed via different enzymes, but I don't know if
they are effected also. Thanks for anything you can tell me.
Justin Brill
The way certain oral antibiotics work to decrease the activity of
steroid hormones is not quite as you explain it. What happens is
that oral antibiotics kill alot of beneficial flora in the gut. Some
of these microbes have a "regenerating" effect on metabolized
steroids from the liver. What happens in the liver is that many
steroids are deactivated by a process called "conjugation" which
means that the steroid is linked to a sugar like molecule called
glucuronic acid. Proceeding this process some of the steroid
glucuronides formed find their way into the bile flow from the liver
into the small intestine. Usually when the microbial environment in
the small intestine is normal, much of the steroid glucuronides will
be hydrolyzed back to the free active parent steroid by microbial
glucuronidase. The free steroid is then reabsorbed and ready for
action again.
When the mircobial environment is disturbed by antibiotics this
regenerating effect is disrupted. Such is the case with women taking
birth control pills. Since the dosage of birth control pills is
small and carefully controlled there is a great risk for women that
take concomitant doses of antibiotics, as the necessary circulating
levels of hormones may be decreased below the active threshold.
However since the dosages for steroid precursors are so large I do
not think that their would be quite the risk of diminished potency
as their is for birth control pills.
Dear Patrick,
My name is Spencer David Kobren; I am the
author of
THE BALD TRUTH. I have successfully stopped the progression of
my hair loss by using Proscar (5mg finasteride) I have been on it
for 3.5 years with wonderful "hair raising" results and no apparent
adverse side effects. However I am a bit concerned about the 15%
increase in testosterone beginning to aromatise. I have not worked
out heavy in about two years because of chronic injuries. I do
however do a light workout a few days per week. I have been noticing
some signs of gyno...I am not really sure if it's gyno or the mere
fact that I don't train my chest like I used to and I put on some
wait. My question is, since my 5a-reductase is being inhibited the
extra testosterone may be aromatising. Is their any dietary or
supplemental protocol I should follow to prevent gyno and increase
muscle tone?
Thanks for your time.
Spencer David Kobren
I don't believe the cause of estrogen related symptoms from
finasteride is because some of the "extra 15%" of testosterone is
aromatizing. Rather I believe that it is due to the elimination of
the 5-alpha reduced androgens androstandione and dihydrotestosterone
that have been shown to have potent paracrine (tissue localized)
aromatase inhibitory and estrogen receptor antagonistic activity.
This is the case of a hormone (DHT) having a good and a bad side.
I know of no bona fide natural anti-estrogenic compounds with the
exception of Indole-3-carbinol. Certain flavonoids MAY also impart
anti-estrogenic effects. I would try to eat a diet high in leafy
green vegetables and perhaps supplement I3C and a flavonoid like
quercitin.
Dear Patrick,
I just got through reading your page on
Andro-6 and thought I must share my thoughts on the subject, because
your criticism of several components of Andro-6 cannot withstand any
criticism! First of all, chrysin. At least, Bill Phillips based his
decision to include this compound in Andro-6 based on solid
scientific research (albeit IN-VITRO). Your criticism of it amounts
to "Gee whiz, my grandma took a bucketful of chrysin and she still
didn't feel anything." "Anecdotal reports"?? Are you shitting me???
'Cause if you're not, I've got some great boron for you to buy! From
what I hear, your testosterone goes through the roof. I can't
believe you even mentioned that! For all you know, that chrysin your
"subjects" were taking was as pure as the waters of the sewage
system. Was that a controlled environment? And were these people's
initial readings measured? (If you put Dorian You-know-who on a mild
dose of Deca-Durabolin and nothing else, he'll probably lose muscle
mass. Does this mean it's an ineffective compound?) You cannot
possibly make conclusions concerning bioavalability based solely on
empirical evidence. Any scientist worth his salt would NEVER rely on
anecdotal evidence!
You also write: "[DHT]... may be vital to
the strength and aggressiveness effects of testosterone." Excuse me,
but aggressiveness is an UN-desirable side effect of testosterone!
If saw palmetto could reduce that aggressiveness, I think that would
be considered a beneficial property, no? Plus, "may be vital"...
Unless you have some research to back it up, it's pure speculation
no better than Phillips' about chrysin. In any case, the fact that
cases of prostate problems and male pattern baldness are so
incredibly wide-spread (and actually growing) would totally justify
supplementing your diet with saw palmetto even if you are not taking
Andro-6 or other anabolic agents. The benefits of inhibiting the
conversion of testosterone into DHT by far outweigh the hypothetical
side effects for athletes.
I also found it quite strange that you
criticize the use of Tribulus Terrestris! That is one supplement
that is back up by both research and "anecdotal reports". Just
because the research was performed in Bulgaria, doesn't make it any
less valid. (In fact, it's probably more valid as Soviet-era
research was conducted by the state agencies who did not have a
hidden agenda of selling a supplement if its effectiveness was
demonstrated.)
The only thing I tend to agree with is the
DHEA argument, although more research in this area would certainly
be justified. Thank you for you attention,
Andrey V. Medvedev
P.S. I would take that article off the Net
if I were you.
P.P.S. No, I don't work for MM or EAS and I
don't know anyone there.
If I based supplements on IN-VITRO research only I could
probably come out with over 100 new products right now. I remember
an executive at a top pharmaceutical companies R&D told me that of
about every 10,000 compounds that work in the test tube perhaps
about 1 are found to be active in humans with low toxicity.
Your statements reveal that you are naive about drug development
and issues such as bioavailablity and pharmacokinetics. Let me tell
you something, I am the person that introduced chrysin to the sports
supplement industry and I have done more research on it than anyone
else in this arena. I worked for EAS and it was during that time I
introduced Bill Phillips to chrysin. Everything Bill knows, or
forgot, or was utterly confused about concerning chrysin he got from
me. I don't suppose you remember an article by Bill in a Q&A of his
a couple of years back where he stated that he would like to see the
people that come out with "flavone X" to do studies to show its
efficacy in humans as well as prove its safety? Did Bill PHillips
ever do such studies before HE came out with chrysin?"
Most of what I have read about chrysin indicates that it should
have very low bioavailability. Its poor solubility and its
metabolically labile nature both make this a poor candidate for an
oral medication. Feedback I have gotten is from people that have
taken several grams and found no amelioration of gynecomastic
symptoms while these same folks respond very well to low dosages of
prescription anti-estrogens.
To use or not to use chrysin is your choice. To sell it is my
choice and I chose not to because I don't sell things with
insufficient data backing them up.
As far as aggressiveness being an undesirable trait I wholly
disagree. Agressiveness and heightened mental function is, according
to the East Germans, one of the greatest benefits of androgenic
steroids on athletic perfomance. That is why they gave their
atheltes more androgenic compounds like testosterone and mestanolone
(methyl DHT). The East Germans coined this mental androgenic effect
"psychomotor stimulation". Since DHT is the active androgen in the
CNS and is the strongest androgen in the body I believe
wholeheartedly that by diminishing 5-alpha reductase you would
diminish some of the ergogenic activity of the testosterone
circulating in your body.
The tribulus terrestris study was done in Bulgaria and sponsored
by the company that sells the stuff. I am not debating the validity
of this study, rather I am just emphasizing the urgency of a second
or third study to validate this one. Why doesn't someone like your
friend Bill Phillips, who claims to be so science oriented, perform
such a cheap simple study to prove the stuff once and for all? Could
it be because the wrong results may hurt sales?
Dear Pat,
What is you feeling on Pro-hGh?
David Shores D.C.
My feelings on Pro-HGH is that it the inventors are scamming the
public. They claim in the MM interview that they have a natural
growth hormone releasing peptide "NGHRP" as the main active
ingredient. The other ingredients are there to support the actions
of the main ingredient "NGHRP"
The fact is the natural ligand for the GHRP receptor has never
been identified. The inventors are out and out lying. My guess is
either this product is a total scam consisting of insuffiently
effective ingredients (the support ingredients) or these guys
"spiked" their formula with a synthetic GHRP.
If the latter is true than it probably would not matter to most
people as long as they know its working!
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